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   11/12/2007, 9:01 PM
keith gerrard is not online. Last active: 05/06/2008 09:57:34 keith gerrard



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Re: Walcott hits back

Strange post from this Steve Jill.

Who is he exactly?


Dream on

keithgerrard@gerrard24.freeserve.co.uk


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   12/12/2007, 9:24 AM
Jill  is not online. Last active: 03/06/2008 16:58:21 Jill



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Re: Walcott hits back

Actually, let us ask Steve to answer that Keith, but I do know they are a valuable asset to the flood defence teams working in emergency situations.

I do not want another slapped wrist if I get it wrong.Zip it! [:#]

But I do agree, BB, Steves attitude was disappointing in the extreme, a fit of pique, perhaps.


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   12/12/2007, 11:16 AM
gardener is not online. Last active: 19/07/2008 15:24:56 gardener

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Re: Walcott hits back
 keith gerrard wrote:

Strange post from this Steve Jill.

Who is he exactly?

Looks like an amateur communications volunteer to me....perhaps one of the Coast watch chappies I see collecting funds on occasion. But didn't make it clear did he...don't think Coast guard would be posting on here.

Looks like Walcott's parish council should set up their own committee and own warning siren, just as long as they could do it without serious third party liablity implications as a chap standing on the sea wall is always going to be more effective in assessing the current situation than someone in an office in Ipswich. I am sure most people would have been happier moving onto higher ground than being in  a flood in the dark...even if it was a false alarm.


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   12/12/2007, 8:31 PM
BB is not online. Last active: 08/05/2008 21:47:39 BB

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Re: Walcott hits back

It is disappointing that there has been nothing further, thus far, from Steve.  It would have been interesting to have received his response, in particular to Jill's post on the issue of why the flood wardens could not sound the sirens.


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   12/12/2007, 11:25 PM
keith gerrard is not online. Last active: 05/06/2008 09:57:34 keith gerrard



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Re: Walcott hits back

This issue seems to go round in a great big circle.

I have yet to work out who was responsible for turning on the sirens.

You ask one lot and they say another lot, you ask them and they say the first lot.

Amateur you say gardener, perhaps that is why.

I wonder if they are planning to replace wardens with 10 year olds with rubber rings, like the community support thing.

That word Amateur sums up New Labour and the Treason government they run.


Dream on

keithgerrard@gerrard24.freeserve.co.uk


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   13/12/2007, 7:56 AM
Jill  is not online. Last active: 03/06/2008 16:58:21 Jill



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Re: Walcott hits back

The meeting was held in Walcott village hall last evening to discuss with officials from the Environment Agency, North Norfolk District Council and the Police to discuss the events of the flooding of Walcott on the 8/9th November 2007.

The Police failed to attend for the second time, the first being to the Scrutiny Committee at the NNDC offices a day earlier. The officer was said to be on other urgent duties.

The villagers were given background information but became quite annoyed when it was little to do with Walcott and more to do with North Norfolk who were not as affected by flooding.

When the attention turned back to Walcott, the Environment Agency representative, said that the Flood Watch was correct as it was the waves which were coming over the top of the sea wall which caused the flooding rather than the sea itself being so high it came over the wall this way.

He was swiftly corrected by the wardens who said the sea was higher than the wall as they were there to witness it. I asked how he could equate a Flood Watch situation with water actually coming into peoples houses, which meant a Flood Warning should have been the correct level but he was adamant that the Flood Watch was still correct.  (Madness)

The Environment Agency Warning System reliability was called into question on many accounts. People said, they could not get registered on the system as their postcodes were not recognised by the computers. Others reported the Environment Agency system went down for hours as so many people called them, no one could get through to ask about conditions.  Other means of communication from the Agency went down when the electricity cut out so phones, TV and radio warnings were not heard and of course at 5.00am in the morning many people were asleep in their beds and wouldnt be watching TV anyway. Because of the system crash many people did not get their Flood Watch calls either.

However, officials are assuring us that this is the way forward. They are not living in Walcott or having to live with the system they are forcing us to have which failed on all accounts on the night of the worst sea surge for 50 years. My own personal experience was that I did receive a Flood Warning some 12 hours earlier, which was not updated, we went to bed unaware of the imminent danger as no updates were given because of the failures and would not have been given anyway because of the Flood Watch level. We were awoken at around 5.00am with water coming feet deep to our doorsteps.

The Environmental Health representative from NNDC who was in the Silver Control Room during this time confirmed that they were "comfortable" they stood down from 11.00pm until 3.30am. When asked who was in the control room during these times, it emerged no one was there until it reconvened at 3.30am. This left the whole of the Norfolk coast without this control room on the worst sea surge for 50 years. They saw nothing wrong with this, however the whole room thought otherwise.

We presented a petition with over 500 signatures to Save the Siren, there was a look of suprise at the amount of signatures collected on the panels faces. When asked why the siren was not sounded, the response was:

1) It would panic people and large numbers would evacuate to the assembly point and should casulties could occur which would leave council officials liable to court proceedings and prison.

2) People would go into the flood waters and it would be more dangerous for them. (We wanted the sirens sounded before it flooded, but they didnt want to answer that scenario as it didnt fit in with their thinking )

3) If the keys were handed to the flood wardens to sound the sirens, they would then be liable if anyone got injured or killed and court proceeding and prison could be the outcome.

We then asked the Civil Contingencies Manager for NNDC about his views on the sirens and about his report on the sirens where he said the were an example of limitation, no longer fit for purpose, not required by the police or Environment agency, ageing technology, no power back up and long lead for forecasting backup.

Ther question was not answered but questions were hurried along by the chairman of the meeting who just happened to be a Cabinet councillor with special interest in the Environmental Health Department of which the Civil Contingencies Manager is a part.

(Keith, the OBN was there to be seen in Walcott last night)

I spoke to the Civil Contingencies Manager later and he said he was going to remove the report from the Internet. I make no further comment on that. However, when they said that they were not against the sirens, it was very different from the report written in January 2007.

The bottom line response from the panel was that no one died. When responded to that it was only down to luck that the winds and sea levels made disaster only inches away, thir response was a complacent, no one died. They were very lucky.

We will be given a questionaire to find out what we think about the sirens, however this is being managed by the council, the questions worded by the council and statistics recorded by the council. As we had no confidence in the councils performance on that night, we feel that the questions will be shaped to the councils advantage and not the residents of Walcott. When asked if we could have input into the questions about the siren, it was refused.

The representative from Norfolk County Council was well received for his informative and common sense approach and earned a round of applause as did the flood wardens.

After the meeting, it was "off the record" that it was admitted that Walcott is likely to keep its siren but no guarantees were given that if the flood wardens asked again, it would be sounded.

We had a small victory, we asked for a siren testing which has been agreed, at least we would know it is operational but again with the proviso that it might not work when it was sounded the next time.

Walcott feels let down by the Police, NNDC and the Enviroment Agency, they say there are lessons to be learned, the first is to admit to their own failings and not pass the buck between agencies to save their own skins.


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   13/12/2007, 9:19 AM
gardener is not online. Last active: 19/07/2008 15:24:56 gardener

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Re: Walcott hits back

So Steve the  Environmental Health Officer defends not sounding  the sirens because people would have left their houses all at the same time?(EDP report) Isn't that what the blessed things are for? This was not giving people who live in Walcott a bit of credit for some common sense. I bet Jill would have rather had the siren sounded in good time and been able to get out of her house with dry feet rather than waited for someone to knock on her door too late.

What would they have done if this had been somewhere that the sea could have burst through in one big surge, like the pictures we see of how the water came in at Sea Palling in 1953? Waiting to knock on doors so people did not panic could have led to fatalities.


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   13/12/2007, 1:25 PM
keith gerrard is not online. Last active: 05/06/2008 09:57:34 keith gerrard



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Re: Walcott hits back

So far, apart from those who worked on the ground during the flood I can see no official people who were at this meeting who were fit for purpose.

They should resign.


Dream on

keithgerrard@gerrard24.freeserve.co.uk


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   13/12/2007, 1:25 PM
keith gerrard is not online. Last active: 05/06/2008 09:57:34 keith gerrard



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Re: Walcott hits back

So far, apart from those who worked on the ground during the flood I can see no official people who were at this meeting who were fit for purpose.

They should resign.


Dream on

keithgerrard@gerrard24.freeserve.co.uk


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   13/12/2007, 6:12 PM
steve is not online. Last active: 13/12/2007 17:44:46 steve

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Re: Walcott hits back

At one time Keith, I would have written similar comments to you:-

 

This issue seems to go round in a great big circle.

I have yet to work out who was responsible for turning on the sirens.

You ask one lot and they say another lot, you ask them and they say the first lot.

Amateur you say gardener, perhaps that is why.

I wonder if they are planning to replace wardens with 10 year olds with rubber rings, like the community support thing.

That word Amateur sums up New Labour and the Treason government they run.

 

Now, however they don't really interest me - in the report Jill copied from our website, it says very clearly who I am. I'm sorry that you don't understand term Licensed Radio Amateur  - the amateur part is simply because we are not licensed to broadcast for professional gain. It does not mean that we have no knowledge or that we are local yokels as you seem to imply.

To get a amateur radio license, you do have to pass various practical and theory exams, which are actually agreed world wide by governments and national radio bodies. The terms of our license (as already stated) only allow us to pass messages for the EPO and the user services (IF you read the Broadland emergency plan, you will find this in greater detail).

Our job is not to make decisions, but provide emergency communications - if there ever was a major incident and power supplies and telephone exchanges /lines in areas went down, virtually the only way there would be of communicating over large distances would be by the use of amateur radio operators - most of us can run our stations from batteries/cars. You should, as such be pleased that Norfolk has one of the highest concentrations of amateur radio operators in the country and that in such an emergency it is most likely that most of them would be prepared to help provide communications.

Now, as stated, the term amateur only applies to our license conditions and I know that many operators have experience in a multitude of fields including working either in or with the emergency services.

As for wardens, you should know that their provision is part of a district council's plan and not the govt. (whatever colour it is).

If you want to slag me off for not actively supporting you, fine, no problem, go ahead - it's no skin off my nose. As for why I say don't involve RAYNET in your deliberations is simple, I am not speaking (or writing) on their behalf, although I am a member - RAYNET is there for the user services to use to pass communications.

I will say though, that you need to look beyond Walcott if you want to find valid information which will back you up on what you want to do - much is available if you think and look in the right places - floods 2007 . . . and will help you prepare a balanced and logical argument for what you want to achieve. Finally don't look to the hired help in a council to provide you with ammunition - they don't want to get themselves out of a job . . . hence search for the reports from more than one of the user services and look for the anomalies and contradictions. They are there.


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   13/12/2007, 8:44 PM
keith gerrard is not online. Last active: 05/06/2008 09:57:34 keith gerrard



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Re: Walcott hits back

Thank you Steve, I am sure Jill will be able to uncover official reports from the other organizations involved.

They should of course be open to public scrutiny in anycase and the media should look at them and report.

This is after all what papers like the local EDP is actually for.

I did not think I was slagging you off, only pointing out your amateur status making you not responsible.

Your abilities in radio are not in question, the report is.

A District council plan based on what and responsible for by whom?

Where is this plan and was it adhered to?


Dream on

keithgerrard@gerrard24.freeserve.co.uk


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   17/12/2007, 1:51 PM
Jill  is not online. Last active: 03/06/2008 16:58:21 Jill



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Re: Walcott hits back

I must say I am at a loss to understand the animosity and disaproval  that Steve shows towards the people affected by the floods and the flood wardens.

Yes, Keith, I did find a report from the Contingencies Manager of NNDC absolutely slating the sirens which was hurried over at the meeting by the councillor for Sheringham, who had cabinet responsibility for the Environmental Health department. We got a bit near to the truth there, we feel and I quite agree the people who were on the panel were only interested in keeping their jobs, saving their skins and were not worried how many people knew they were in the wrong by making that decision. Over 500 said they thought the sirens should have been used and signed our petition as against a handful who were in Silver control, Environmental Agency and the police, a highly political group out for their own personal advancements.

However, I do hnot think their decision will endear them to their superiors who are now carrying the can.

The report of the Scrutiny Committee meeting in the EDP gave Steve Hems of NNDC comments as if the sirens had been sounded, many would panic and go into the flood areas and casulties could happen and NNDC would be liable.

In theory, Yes this could happen, but in reality, in Walcott, this is not the case and some five weeks after the event, the council officials have not seen this for themselves. A vast proportion of Walcott could reach the assembly points without going past the vulnerable areas near the sea wall but the people worst affected could get out earlier, safer and without the danger that NOT sounding the sirens caused.

The flood wardens are volunteers, the sirens are maintained and under the control of Norfolk County Council and sounded by radio from Crystal Palace

We feel the police had the last say but they have failed to turn up, although their spokesman did make a statement saying they did not want all of Walcott evacuated.

So about 80-100 people were put in great jeopardy because of this decision.

I do agree wholeheartedly about the officials of the NNDC keeping to their "party line" which was actually said to me by one if the panel at the meeting last week. Their one get out clause was "nobody died" and they will stick to this until the end.

If the council got out of their offices, went to the scene, formulated a plan for the future in consultation with the flood wardens and fishermen and people on the ground, we might start to have a modicum of trust.

At the moment, we feel the council, EA and the police are our enemies and our lives are in great danger for the future.

 


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   17/12/2007, 3:43 PM
keith gerrard is not online. Last active: 05/06/2008 09:57:34 keith gerrard



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Re: Walcott hits back

The master plan is simple Jill.

Walcott and a large area of Norfolk is expendable.


Dream on

keithgerrard@gerrard24.freeserve.co.uk


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   17/12/2007, 5:59 PM
BB is not online. Last active: 08/05/2008 21:47:39 BB

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Re: Walcott hits back
There is a question which has been asked before and I feel is a fair point to ask again: what is the point of having the sirens if (a) the flood wardens don't have access to sound them and (b) it is thought that sounding them would panic the residents?
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   17/12/2007, 9:02 PM
keith gerrard is not online. Last active: 05/06/2008 09:57:34 keith gerrard



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Re: Walcott hits back

There need to be sirens anywhere that has a serious flood possibility.

Turning them on should be in the hands of people who know how to judge the sea state and flood risk.

The reason there is hesitation using them is this stupid ingrained PC attitude with its daft blame culture.

In other words those in power are SCARED to make a decision.

They are unfit for purpose.

I like that description it fits so many politicians etc these days.


Dream on

keithgerrard@gerrard24.freeserve.co.uk


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